Comments on: My Own Hard Look at Trading for a Living, Part II http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/ Futures Trading, Custom Programming, and Commentary Fri, 05 Mar 2010 06:12:03 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Richard http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-5719 Richard Sun, 30 Dec 2007 04:46:15 +0000 http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/#comment-5719 Yes, trading is a form of gambling very similar to playing poker. So, you got that much right, but then somehow reached the conclusion that no one can make serious money at it. In reality, most will be bled dry, while a smaller number will make quite a nice living. The money from the losers has to go _somewhere_, after all! Lately, more and more of it is going to me... Yes, trading is a form of gambling very similar to playing poker. So, you got that much right, but then somehow reached the conclusion that no one can make serious money at it. In reality, most will be bled dry, while a smaller number will make quite a nice living. The money from the losers has to go _somewhere_, after all! Lately, more and more of it is going to me…

]]> By: Gman http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-5718 Gman Sun, 30 Dec 2007 04:28:41 +0000 http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/#comment-5718 Trading is gambling pure and simple. If anyone tells you they make tons of money tell them to prove it with statements or shut up. Trading is gambling pure and simple. If anyone tells you they make tons of money tell them to prove it with statements or shut up.

]]> By: Phileo http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-2094 Phileo Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:39:58 +0000 http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/#comment-2094 @J: Thank you for the suggestion. Although I have not thought about a stop loss strategy for my new career path, I have heard of a couple traders who apply Technical analysis on their own equity curves, which is a similar mindset. I will give that some thought. @J: Thank you for the suggestion. Although I have not thought about a stop loss strategy for my new career path, I have heard of a couple traders who apply Technical analysis on their own equity curves, which is a similar mindset. I will give that some thought.

]]> By: J http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-2093 J Thu, 08 Feb 2007 19:21:07 +0000 http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/#comment-2093 Phileo, have you ever considered applying a stop loss strategy to your Trading for a Living career? Simply decide now, before it happens, how much of a loss (in dollar or percentage terms) would be too much for you to bear, and decide now to quit if things ever got that bad. And you could revisit your decision once a year and review whether your target should be changed. Phileo, have you ever considered applying a stop loss strategy to your Trading for a Living career? Simply decide now, before it happens, how much of a loss (in dollar or percentage terms) would be too much for you to bear, and decide now to quit if things ever got that bad. And you could revisit your decision once a year and review whether your target should be changed.

]]> By: Phileo http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-2058 Phileo Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:35:55 +0000 http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/#comment-2058 @Scott: Thanks for you comments and great points about the more subtle ways stock trading contributes to society. I should point out though, that the Brits also spell it as "paycheque." But you're right, if y'all took a look at mah spellings y'all would know I ain't American. @Scott: Thanks for you comments and great points about the more subtle ways stock trading contributes to society. I should point out though, that the Brits also spell it as “paycheque.”

But you’re right, if y’all took a look at mah spellings y’all would know I ain’t American.

]]> By: Scott http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-2056 Scott Tue, 06 Feb 2007 13:57:03 +0000 http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/#comment-2056 "...I don’t see how buying stock XYZ at price A and selling it at price A+1 contributes to society." Well, let's think locally. If you pay commissions, then you're contributing to the well-being of your brokerage. If you earn profits, you'll pay taxes -- which most (okay, some) people would agree contributes to society. If you earn profits, you can buy diapers -- which helps the grocer and manufacturer. If you stash some of your profits away, you're helping out your banker. In short, you are contributing to society the same as any other working person. Re: Dr. Roberts...I don't know where to start: holier-than-thou attitude, illogical argument. Here's a newsflash: being a "professional" doesn't confer any right to special abilities or status. If that was the case, we wouldn't have seen the mutual fund industry lose TRILLIONS of dollars of shareholder money in 2000-01. That's a debacle that to this day has not been properly vetted. The "professionals" sure messed that one up, huh? The MBAs, PhDs, CFAs didn't seem to make a difference -- they screwed up just like regular folks. The sell-side analyst conflict of interest "scandal" was insignificant -- *insignificant* -- by comparison. Regarding Phileo's nationality, here's a clue: "paycheque." :) “…I don’t see how buying stock XYZ at price A and selling it at price A+1 contributes to society.”

Well, let’s think locally. If you pay commissions, then you’re contributing to the well-being of your brokerage. If you earn profits, you’ll pay taxes — which most (okay, some) people would agree contributes to society. If you earn profits, you can buy diapers — which helps the grocer and manufacturer. If you stash some of your profits away, you’re helping out your banker. In short, you are contributing to society the same as any other working person.

Re: Dr. Roberts…I don’t know where to start: holier-than-thou attitude, illogical argument. Here’s a newsflash: being a “professional” doesn’t confer any right to special abilities or status. If that was the case, we wouldn’t have seen the mutual fund industry lose TRILLIONS of dollars of shareholder money in 2000-01. That’s a debacle that to this day has not been properly vetted. The “professionals” sure messed that one up, huh? The MBAs, PhDs, CFAs didn’t seem to make a difference — they screwed up just like regular folks. The sell-side analyst conflict of interest “scandal” was insignificant — *insignificant* — by comparison.

Regarding Phileo’s nationality, here’s a clue: “paycheque.”

:)

]]> By: Tyro http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-2048 Tyro Tue, 06 Feb 2007 03:42:26 +0000 http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/#comment-2048 Dr Roberts, <i>"However, there are things much more permanent that cant be brought back such as the time spent with kids or (for the single guy) a night spent out on the town."</i> What delightful irony. The one event which consumes more of our time and energy than any other isn't clubbing but working. Surely a doctor would understand that the best way to achieve overall happiness isn't by escaping to the nightclubs every now and then while working at a miserable job, but to find a job which excites and energizes us. (And still going to the nightclubs :) ) If time is important, then trading as a career becomes even more important to me. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but I think Phileo and Richard would agree. <i>"Your going to wake up one day and find that the bull market is over."</i> Two points. First, as you pointed out, Richard and Phileo are daytrading (with some swing trades). They're taking longs and shorts. Bull Market doesn't matter, volatility is what counts. In that respect, this market has been horrible. End this "bull" market, bring it on, as long as the volatility increases :) And a second point which I wouldn't bring up but you act so smug with your "Dr" thing and the I've-lost-more-money-than-you've-made schtick: learn the difference between "your" and "you're". Phileo - great stuff. Inspiring. Dr Roberts,

“However, there are things much more permanent that cant be brought back such as the time spent with kids or (for the single guy) a night spent out on the town.”

What delightful irony.

The one event which consumes more of our time and energy than any other isn’t clubbing but working. Surely a doctor would understand that the best way to achieve overall happiness isn’t by escaping to the nightclubs every now and then while working at a miserable job, but to find a job which excites and energizes us. (And still going to the nightclubs :) )

If time is important, then trading as a career becomes even more important to me. I don’t want to speak for anyone else, but I think Phileo and Richard would agree.

“Your going to wake up one day and find that the bull market is over.”

Two points. First, as you pointed out, Richard and Phileo are daytrading (with some swing trades). They’re taking longs and shorts. Bull Market doesn’t matter, volatility is what counts. In that respect, this market has been horrible. End this “bull” market, bring it on, as long as the volatility increases :)

And a second point which I wouldn’t bring up but you act so smug with your “Dr” thing and the I’ve-lost-more-money-than-you’ve-made schtick: learn the difference between “your” and “you’re”.

Phileo – great stuff. Inspiring.

]]> By: Prospectus http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-2047 Prospectus Tue, 06 Feb 2007 03:18:34 +0000 http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/#comment-2047 @ Dr. Roberts: Thank you for your comments. Your points about being absolutely prepared for professional daytrading are absolutely correct. No one should quit their job with stars in their eyes, or they will hit reality very quickly! Still, I have to disagree about some of what you said. Too bad there weren't any daytraders or ECN's around back in '87. When the floor traders stopped answering their phones you might have found some liquidity to save some of your 300k loss. Also, longer timeframes are not equivalent to risk control. I'm sure Amaranth was in it for a long term return, as was Long Term Capital Management. Fear of a 'crash' should only strike those with unmanaged risks on whatever timeframe. Personally, I'd rather only be at risk during the most liquid of trading times, and that does not include overnight. :) @ Dr. Roberts:
Thank you for your comments. Your points about being absolutely prepared for professional daytrading are absolutely correct. No one should quit their job with stars in their eyes, or they will hit reality very quickly!

Still, I have to disagree about some of what you said. Too bad there weren’t any daytraders or ECN’s around back in ‘87. When the floor traders stopped answering their phones you might have found some liquidity to save some of your 300k loss.

Also, longer timeframes are not equivalent to risk control. I’m sure Amaranth was in it for a long term return, as was Long Term Capital Management. Fear of a ‘crash’ should only strike those with unmanaged risks on whatever timeframe. Personally, I’d rather only be at risk during the most liquid of trading times, and that does not include overnight. :)

]]> By: Can You Make It As a Trader? -- Move the Markets http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-2046 Can You Make It As a Trader? -- Move the Markets Tue, 06 Feb 2007 02:44:05 +0000 http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/#comment-2046 [...] I never would have written this post if it weren’t for a couple great posts by Phileo about his hard look at daytrading part I and part II [...] [...] I never would have written this post if it weren’t for a couple great posts by Phileo about his hard look at daytrading part I and part II [...]

]]> By: Phileo http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-2044 Phileo Tue, 06 Feb 2007 02:00:41 +0000 http://www.movethemarkets.com/blog/2007/02/02/my-own-hard-look-at-trading-for-a-living-part-ii/#comment-2044 Hello Dr. Michael Roberts, First off, thank you for helping me to cultivate the virtue of patience in reading through your comments. They will surely come in handy when I start trading for a Living. If you doubt the validity of PinoyTrader's results, I'm afraid you'll have to get in line. The fact that there is a whole mob of people who also doubt PinoyTrader's results, or even his identity is already yesterday's news . However, I do find it mildly curious that you not taken the time to seek to understand who PinoyTrader is, and yet you are asking me to take advice from someone that I have never even heard of, met, or know. In your very own words, we "only know PinoyTrader over the Internet." I know you even less than that. You call me "Friend." But I don't even know you! You urge me to trade over longer timeframes. Have you even taken the time to read my trading Journal? You make it sound as if I am already well on my way to down the road to Risk of Ruin. Fortunately, I've learned not to take advice from strangers from the Internet. You tell me to go out and find myself a job. Been there, done that, and now I am ready for this new job of mine. And why are you so concerned about health insurance for my family? Hmmm.... I guess you have not taken the time to seek to understand who I am, otherwise you would have known that US Health insurance is not applicable to my situation. Surely a "Friend" would know more than that, right?? You claim that if I am seriously considering daytrading as a profession, then I am not mature enough to know the consequences of my actions. Have you even taken the time to seek to understand what I have been doing for the past few months? Please point out the exact part of my article that says that I am considering daytrading as a profession. Dr. Roberts, do you even know the very simple difference between Trading for a Living, and DayTrading as a profession? Please, Dr. Roberts. Take the time to seek first to understand the whole situation, the complete situation. Then I would be more than willing to address your concerns. Hello Dr. Michael Roberts,

First off, thank you for helping me to cultivate the virtue of patience in reading through your comments. They will surely come in handy when I start trading for a Living.
If you doubt the validity of PinoyTrader’s results, I’m afraid you’ll have to get in line. The fact that there is a whole mob of people who also doubt PinoyTrader’s results, or even his identity is already yesterday’s news . However, I do find it mildly curious that you not taken the time to seek to understand who PinoyTrader is, and yet you are asking me to take advice from someone that I have never even heard of, met, or know. In your very own words, we “only know PinoyTrader over the Internet.” I know you even less than that. You call me “Friend.” But I don’t even know you! You urge me to trade over longer timeframes. Have you even taken the time to read my trading Journal? You make it sound as if I am already well on my way to down the road to Risk of Ruin. Fortunately, I’ve learned not to take advice from strangers from the Internet. You tell me to go out and find myself a job. Been there, done that, and now I am ready for this new job of mine. And why are you so concerned about health insurance for my family? Hmmm…. I guess you have not taken the time to seek to understand who I am, otherwise you would have known that US Health insurance is not applicable to my situation. Surely a “Friend” would know more than that, right??
You claim that if I am seriously considering daytrading as a profession, then I am not mature enough to know the consequences of my actions. Have you even taken the time to seek to understand what I have been doing for the past few months? Please point out the exact part of my article that says that I am considering daytrading as a profession. Dr. Roberts, do you even know the very simple difference between Trading for a Living, and DayTrading as a profession?

Please, Dr. Roberts. Take the time to seek first to understand the whole situation, the complete situation. Then I would be more than willing to address your concerns.

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